NATO
Radio 101 Interview with Ambassador Victoria Nuland, U.S. Permanent Representative to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO)
Zagreb, Croatia
March 7, 2006
RADIO 101: Let's start with some good news. Visits of NATO high representatives and officials especially American intensified during the last few months. Is it a sign of a new era in Croatian-NATO relations?
AMBASSADOR NULAND: Well I hope so, Zrinka. As you know, Croatia is preparing for 2008, which is the next opportunity for NATO heads of state and government to look at the candidates for enlargement and decide whether anybody's ready. So being two years out we are intensifying consultations to look at how you're doing, to give you the help that you may need, and to tell you what we expect. So it's great to be here.
RADIO 101: Our Prime Minister always says, well he knows it will be 2008 but that he expects strong signals from the summit in Riga. So are there going to be any strong signals, and which kind?
AMBASSADOR NULAND: Well, let's start with 2008. NATO doesn't decide until NATO decides. And whether Croatia makes it in 2008 will be up to Croatia and Croatians. And I say that because right now we see less than majority support for NATO membership. So we only want to take a country where not just the elites but all of the people support the idea, because NATO is an organization where you have certain privileges but you also have certain responsibilities. So that's the first thing. With regard to 2006: in November we will have a meeting of the 26 current members of NATO, and we're going to try to strengthen the organization militarily, politically. I think we will hope to have some good words about our various aspirant countries, including Croatia, but again that's going to depend on the progress we make this year. But we understand very much that that's important.
RADIO 101: You just mentioned the low support of the Croatian public to NATO membership. It's one of the problems which NATO officials always mention when they talk to generals here in Croatia. Is NATO going to help the Croatian government to raise this support, and in which way?
AMBASSADOR NULAND: Well that's among the reasons why I'm here. I was here to see the President, the Prime Minister and also saw your parliamentarians, but also to do things like this, to talk to people about what today's NATO is about, so that Croatia and Croatians can make their own decision. You know this is no longer the NATO where we stand across the Fulda Gap and wait for the Soviet invasion. This is a NATO where our primary mission now is defending peace, security and democracy in Afghanistan, where we are in the Balkans still, where we are helping to train the next generation of Iraqi security forces, where we are giving support and assistance to the African Union in its Darfur mission, where we're delivering humanitarian relief to Pakistan. So this is the NATO that Croatians need to think about and decide about. As my friend George Robertson likes to say, "It ain't your daddy's NATO."
RADIO 101: That's right. With The Hague Tribunal cooperation being fulfilled, but other political criteria are important to NATO. And… what is still there to be improved by the Croatian government on political subjects?
AMBASSADOR NULAND: Thanks for that question. I think on the political side you are very strongly on the right track with your democracy, we want to see those things strengthened, we obviously want to see you continue to strengthen rule of law, the fight against crime and corruption, the judicial system, all those kinds of things, your strong program on refugee returns, those kinds of things. Many of the same things you are working with the EU on. Obviously the biggest political issue is, does your population want this? So that's number one. Because we don't invite countries where the population doesn't say yes, so that's the number one thing. But we're also working very intensively with your military and with your government to strengthen Croatia as a security exporter. You're starting to do a lot more. We're very pleased to see the strong deployment in Afghanistan now and you contribute to U.N. missions and obviously in the Balkans and in the neighborhood. But Croatia needs to continue to invest in tomorrow's military: an expeditionary force that can really add value to the alliance, not the old static forces of the past. So that work needs to be done. You have a very good plan, now it needs to be implemented, it needs to be funded, we need fewer of yesterday's generals and more of tomorrow's expeditionary forces.
RADIO 101: So what would you say, is more investment required into people or into equipment?
AMBASSADOR NULAND: It is the right kind of people and the right kind of equipment. Currently, the ratio of money spent on personnel is a little bit high. The ratio of money spent on 21st century equipment is a little bit low. But what's most important is that you spend all of the money that you have wisely. You spend it on expeditionary personnel who can be interoperable with NATO. You have for example some superb military police in Afghanistan. That is a security specialty that's in short supply in the world, that's a particular niche that Croatia can strengthen so those units need to be supported. You're working on a deployable battalion, that's exactly what we need. So spending smart, on both people and equipment.
RADIO 101: What about our instructors in Iraq? You know that the public was not very keen on sending anybody to Iraq. So do you expect Croatia to play a more active role in NATO peacekeeping, on other missions everywhere else? And what about Iraq? Did you talk about that to the President and the Prime Minister?
AMBASSADOR NULAND: We didn't talk about Iraq today. Obviously from a NATO perspective, which is what we're here to talk about today, the contribution that NATO is making as an organization in Iraq is to help train the next generation of security leaders. The exit strategy for all of us, and the exit strategy that the Iraqis hope will be realized some day, is for the Iraqis to be able to manage their own security. So I think that's a terrific investment for Croatia to make, for all of us to make, to help train. And in fact, when you talk about today's NATO, we're strong politically, we're strong operationally, we increasingly want to strengthen ourselves as an exporter of security training. So I think you'll see us working on that in the future too.
RADIO 101: So what would be your evaluation of the reforms within the Croatian Army and Ministry of Defense, which have already been done? And what's important to be done in the next two or three years? We're talking about size and everything else.
AMBASSADOR NULAND: You've made a good start, you have a good plan. The military's still too big, and still a little too flabby. It needs to be smaller, more expeditionary, more particular expertise in interoperable areas, better equipped, better able to sustain itself at a distance. Because if we do our job well there will be less trouble in this neighborhood, but we'll still need to go where the trouble is, which will be far from Croatia we hope.
RADIO 101: When we talk about U.S.-Croatian relations, our Foreign Minister visited the U.S. about two weeks ago, and from her statements we understood that your government is not insisting on signing an agreement on Article 98. But it doesn't mean they won't be glad if we signed it. So is it or not a condition for American support to Croatia's NATO ambitions?
AMBASSADOR NULAND: We did talk about Article 98 today. We talked about it in terms of the fact that without it we're not able bilaterally to provide the kind of technical and educational support to your military that we'd like to be able to provide them, in order for them to meet these NATO standards. So we think it would be a great step to take. You know, frankly, we have an Article 98 with Romania. It hasn't affected their EU effort. We have it with Albania and with Macedonia. The other aspect here is the political one. When the U.S. Senate looks at Croatia, will they ask the question, "Why don't they want to have these shared protections back and forth among our soldiers? Is this a political statement on the Croatian side?" So I think that's a question you'll have to ask yourselves, whether it isn't actually of some benefit to you now.
RADIO 101: When we talk about Congress and Senate, how important was the resolution issue at the end of last year about Croatia's membership in NATO?
AMBASSADOR NULAND: Well, it's always good to have those kind of political signals. But it was not obviously legally binding. And you know when we get to that stage should NATO heads of state and government issue you an invitation we will still have to go through a formal Senate ratification process. That'll be a very, very serious look at all aspects of Croatia's readiness. And among the things we talked to… particularly your parliamentarians about today was doing more to interact with U.S. parliamentarians, U.S. senators and congressmen, invite them here, go there, and others around Europe, so that you can tell Croatia's story, and so that they make this decision based on knowledge.
RADIO 101: You just mentioned the summit in Riga is supposed to be a summit of consolidation after enlargement with new members. What are NATO experiences with new members? Were they really ready to join?
AMBASSADOR NULAND: You know, my view - and I was the deputy in our mission to NATO when we were 19 allies, I come back as Ambassador and we're 26 allies - I think this Alliance is a stronger, more committed, more expeditionary alliance than the alliance that we had just a few years ago. The new members have strengthened us. They've brought energy, they've brought will, in many cases they jumped right over the old military structures to modern ones. I think Croatia's trying to do the same. And they understand what we're trying to do in a 21st century world, so I think it's a stronger NATO, and I think enlargement refreshes our spirit.
RADIO 101: So NATO's not tired of enlargement?
AMBASSADOR NULAND: No. I wouldn't be here if we were.
RADIO 101: But you know when we talk about new member countries, I know they face certain problems, is it the problem of equipment, or budget, or…
AMBASSADOR NULAND: You know every single ally, the United States included, would like to have more money, we'd like to have more capability, we'd like to be able to do more. One of the great strengths of NATO is that we can help each other. You know, for example we can help each other by sharing air defenses, so that everybody doesn't have to have standing fixed-wing aircraft. We can help each other by pooling money for common communications. So what NATO helps you to do is to do more with the same. So I think that's important. But I have to tell you a little story which goes to Afghanistan. I was in Afghanistan with General Jones and the Secretary General of NATO in the fall, and we went first to Kabul, obviously, but then we went up to Chagcharan, which is in the province of Ghor, 8,000 miles up. And who did we find there, keeping the peace for NATO? The Lithuanians. 125 Lithuanian 18 to 25-year-olds in this dustbowl of a place that used to be beautiful, and will be beautiful again. And those are our new allies, and they're out there on the front lines, and we're very, very proud to have them.
RADIO 101: Croatia wants to keep aircraft - do you mind it or not?
AMBASSADOR NULAND: We talked a lot today about spending smart. And we're not sure that a big commitment in fixed-wing aircraft in today's world makes a lot of sense.
RADIO 101: What about budget? Did you talk about it beside?
AMBASSADOR NULAND: We did. We always talk about 2%. And the United States talks to our old allies about 2% too, because that's important.
RADIO 101: The last question. A few days ago Atlantic Declaration countries decided to send a letter to Secretary General expressing their will to work harder on NATO membership. What do you think of this initiative, and can you compare us with other two countries, Macedonia and Albania?
AMBASSADOR NULAND: I'm not going to make comparisons here today. We're not going to do that. We're working with each of you individually and we're also encouraging you to help each other. And that was the formula for success in the last two enlargements and we'll continue to do that.
RADIO 101: Do you really think that our prime minister is really showing will to work harder together with those two countries after this meeting today?
AMBASSADOR NULAND: Oh I think so, yeah. I mean he just hosted this regional meeting, and I think that's very important for those lines of communication to be open. I would tell you also that up in Brussels I meet regularly, about every two months I have lunch with your ambassador, along with Albania and Macedonia, and we talk about how we can strengthen the whole region, and strengthen everybody's bids, so I think it's a really good… we call it the A3 but it's really the A4 because the United States is your fourth partner. So that's important.
RADIO 101: Thank you very much.
AMBASSADOR NULAND: You're welcome.